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mike27
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Peculiar property of a indeterminate universe

First of all, I'm sorry if this has already been postulated; I am in no way well-read on quantum physics, so I may be rehashing common knowledge. If this is the case, please be gentle. Anyway...

It dawned on me today that, in an indeterminate, many-worlds (infinite timelines) universe, there would be timelines where everything appeared determinate. That is, an indeterminate, many-worlds universe would produce an infinite number of timelines which, for practical purposes, are deterministic. Sure, particle behavior may be unpredictable at the quantum level, but with infinite iterations of random position/velocity, there will be an infinite number of timelines where all the particles appear to move in a predictable fashion.

It seems that, even in an indeterministic universe, there are an infinite number of observers whose universe behaves in a deterministic way.

I guess the question is, are we in the infinite number of unpredictable timelines, or are we in the infinite number of predictable timelines?
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Old 09-11-2007, 01:35 AM mike27 is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27 View Post
First of all, I'm sorry if this has already been postulated; I am in no way well-read on quantum physics, so I may be rehashing common knowledge. If this is the case, please be gentle. Anyway...

It dawned on me today that, in an indeterminate, many-worlds (infinite timelines) universe, there would be timelines where everything appeared determinate. That is, an indeterminate, many-worlds universe would produce an infinite number of timelines which, for practical purposes, are deterministic. Sure, particle behavior may be unpredictable at the quantum level, but with infinite iterations of random position/velocity, there will be an infinite number of timelines where all the particles appear to move in a predictable fashion.

It seems that, even in an indeterministic universe, there are an infinite number of observers whose universe behaves in a deterministic way.

I guess the question is, are we in the infinite number of unpredictable timelines, or are we in the infinite number of predictable timelines?



You just gave Hawking the finger. ver his answer why his earlier (25-30 year?) stance on the information pardox was wrong but not why the other guy said.
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Old 09-11-2007, 01:46 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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mike27
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You just gave Hawking the finger. ver his answer why his earlier (25-30 year?) stance on the information pardox was wrong but not why the other guy said.

can you rephrase that?

edit: does this mean I can get a macarthur grant?
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Old 09-11-2007, 01:52 AM mike27 is offline  
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TheMorlock
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can you rephrase that?

One of the base premises of Hawkings black hole theory is that information is lost. That a black hole over time will slowly cease to exist without "giving back" information of what entered it. Even hawking radiation does not carry any information.

every other interaction in physics preserves info from what happened previously even when you consider H's uncertainty principle

A friend of Hawking a decade or more ago did not like the Information Paradox(well most math/ physics people) and came up with a solution that bypassed it.

Hawking smiled his yuo is a moron smile and worked to proove that his math/physics was unasailable. He changed his mind. Decided he was wrong.

His friend said that there was a dicotomy between what was observed from outside the event horizon and what happened to an object entering it.
To the objective observer a person entering the event horizon gets ripped down to subatomic parts.
But to the person they enter the event horizon intact. Because the event horizon creates a "2d smear" of information at the event horizon that is permanent to the outside observer while the object entering never experiences that. So information is preserved.

Hawkings new take on the situation says that is . What happens to preserve information is that the sum of the infinite probalities for the black hole to even exist are that the black hole does NOT exist for the sum. So the universe where the black hole exists does not matter.
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Old 09-11-2007, 02:06 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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TheMorlock
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BTW they are both wrong
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Old 09-11-2007, 02:51 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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mike27
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BTW they are both wrong

im still confused, is my observation novel or what
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Old 09-11-2007, 02:58 AM mike27 is offline  
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TheMorlock
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im still confused, is my observation novel or what

no

but if you came up with it yourself you did a good job. It took Hawking 30 years to come up with the obverse.
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Old 09-11-2007, 03:07 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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mike27
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no

but if you came up with it yourself you did a good job. It took Hawking 30 years to come up with the obverse.

I believe that's worth several cool points
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Old 09-11-2007, 03:19 AM mike27 is offline  
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TheMorlock
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I believe that's worth several cool points


noted
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Old 09-11-2007, 03:23 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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BTW they are both wrong

I saw a documentary about the thing you talked about. Kind of funny in a way ...

"yuor rong"
"no u"

...30 years later

"yuor rong"
"lol we both are n00b"
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Old 09-11-2007, 06:13 AM Straw Man is offline  
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First of all, I'm sorry if this has already been postulated; I am in no way well-read on quantum physics, so I may be rehashing common knowledge. If this is the case, please be gentle. :o Anyway...

It dawned on me today that, in an indeterminate, many-worlds (infinite timelines) universe, there would be timelines where everything appeared determinate. That is, an indeterminate, many-worlds universe would produce an infinite number of timelines which, for practical purposes, are deterministic. Sure, particle behavior may be unpredictable at the quantum level, but with infinite iterations of random position/velocity, there will be an infinite number of timelines where all the particles appear to move in a predictable fashion.

It seems that, even in an indeterministic universe, there are an infinite number of observers whose universe behaves in a deterministic way.

I guess the question is, are we in the infinite number of unpredictable timelines, or are we in the infinite number of predictable timelines? :)


And you dare send me a PM to bitch at me over my threads and posts? You posted this while high on crack, no doubt.
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:02 PM SickSociety is offline  
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It dawned on me today that, in an indeterminate, many-worlds (infinite timelines) universe, there would be timelines where everything appeared determinate. That is, an indeterminate, many-worlds universe would produce an infinite number of timelines which, for practical purposes, are deterministic. Sure, particle behavior may be unpredictable at the quantum level, but with infinite iterations of random position/velocity, there will be an infinite number of timelines where all the particles appear to move in a predictable fashion.
First of all, Morlock is an eager crackpot and while I have no doubt he saw the Discovery Channel special, you'd do just as well watching it yourself and not encouraging him to pontificate.

Next up, many-worlds -- while "conventional" in the sense it's used by people with big brains -- is still pedagogically ludicrous. Not that anybody in quantum gravity has the slightest idea what the hell he's doing; all of it is sufficiently theoretical even calling it "physics" is dicey. Just as with strings, that you can navigate the math well enough to find traction doesn't change the fact you're still climbing up your own ass.

Incidentally, this is a snipe all physicists take to feel better about not being able to do said math, which more or less obviates the "nobody knows what the hell he's doing" problem. As long as that's where we are, I'll take SUSY in the LHC over Russian roulette, thanks.

Finally, I'm not sure what you're asking. What's "appear, for practical purposes, determinate?" You seem to confuse uncertain -- a statistical statement about, like, sig figs -- with random / unpredictable. Neither term is appropriate: mechanics laws still apply, just with a caveat that you find a given particle at one of several places, and some are more likely than others. Empirical probability P is still the cold, hard fact, whether we branched into that world with chance P or it just fucking happens (Copenhagen) with chance P.

A criticism I have (though I'm in no way qualified to) is that many-worlds' realism is a gyp: it's not that properties are fundamentally uncertain, it's just that some occur more often than others. Okay, how? *crickets.* The buck's passed from wavefunction collapse to a new rabbit-in-a-hat trick. The definition of probability sets an abstract multiverse as a sample space, who gives a fuck if it "exists" in some untestable sense?

At the end of the day, all these interpretations amount to is a framework to feel good about clinging to our intuitive assumptions. To that end, while the book's not closed, local realism is not a smart bet, and cosmology needs SR more than it needs hidden variables.
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:35 PM möbiustrip is offline  
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mike27
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And you dare send me a PM to bitch at me over my threads and posts? You posted this while high on crack, no doubt.

Well, let's see.

You post self-righteous, illogical, hateful tripe and serve primarily as a forum jester whose comical stupidity makes even the double-digit-IQ posters look like geniuses in comparison; I post an interesting (and, as it turns out, worthwhile) observation that I made after pondering determinism for about 10 minutes and it turns out to be something that took Stephen Hawking 30 years to formulate... Who looks stupid here?

The best part of your post, though, is the second sentence: either you think crack enhances intellect, or you unknowingly complimented my intelligence; apparently you think that, even under the influence of crack cocaine, my intellect can do in 10 minutes what Stephen Hawking did in 30 years. Thank you.
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:44 PM mike27 is offline  
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mathlete
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Well, let's see.

You post self-righteous, illogical, hateful tripe and serve primarily as a forum jester whose comical stupidity makes even the double-digit-IQ posters look like geniuses in comparison; I post an interesting (and, as it turns out, worthwhile) observation that I made after pondering determinism for about 10 minutes and it turns out to be something that took Stephen Hawking 30 years to formulate... Who looks stupid here?

The best part of your post, though, is the second sentence: either you think crack enhances intellect, or you unknowingly complimented my intelligence; apparently you think that, even under the influence of crack cocaine, my intellect can do in 10 minutes what Stephen Hawking did in 30 years. Thank you.



Seriously, you're looking to themorlock for proof of your brilliance? You're more conceited than I realized.
Old 09-11-2007, 09:24 PM mathlete is offline  
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mike27
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Seriously, you're looking to themorlock for proof of your brilliance? You're more conceited than I realized.

Ah, so I am conceited because I didn't dismiss his post.
Should I have dismissed it because:
a) it was posted by TheMorlock, and I should have known - as per my extensive list of Pit posters and their respective areas of credibility/expertise - to ignore him?
b) the content of his post was clearly incorrect, which should have been readily apparent to me despite the fact that (as I stated in the very first sentence of the thread) I know almost nothing about quantum physics?

Maybe one day I can be as modest as you and ignore messages because of the messenger or ignore posts from people who appear to be far more knowledgeable about a topic than I am.

Next time I will only ask questions that I already know the answer to, lest I unknowingly believe someone who is wrong.
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:19 PM mike27 is offline  
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