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Electrikfuzz050
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
So how exactly do you do that? Jobs are actively leaving the country because it's too damn expensive to give workers benefits, and they won't take jobs without them.

As for why you should pay for their insurance, you're already paying for it. Every time someone goes to the emergency room for care they can't afford, it costs you money. Managing these cases is part of mitigating costs.


Ideally they'd address it in some capacity, but the discussion is already tremendously complex and it's a touchy issue. You're only going to see a fraction of a percent improvement from any malpractice reform, and you're running the risk of hurting people who have legitimate cases. It's a tremendous red herring to act like this is any kind of significant issue.


By all analysis, it would cost less than what we currently pay out to private insurers. People are just irrationally terrified of paying money to Uncle Sam instead of some fat cat.


And people would be dying on the streets because they can't afford their insulin. Good plan.


Why is the crude death rate, which is open to all sorts of conflating variables, more of a reflection of the quality of health care than life expectancy or things like infant mortality?


You're already paying for Jim Bob's pool injury, and you're already paying for any regulations that mandate insurance companies cover preexisting conditions. Why so terrified of having Uncle Sam do it? The insurance companies sure as hell don't want to.

As I stated, we SHOULDN'T be paying for Jim Bob's pool injury.

And the crude death rate is a better gauge because that's the rate of deaths in those countries in respect to the total population. I always thought that the main purpose of healthcare was to keep people from dying.
Old 08-11-2009, 09:23 PM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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bingstudent
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Originally Posted by Electrikfuzz050 View Post
Inelastic demand would require some sort of cartel or violation of anti-trust laws in this case.

The insurance companies aren't conspiring to rob the American people, and there certainly isn't one company monopolizing the industry.

If one company wants to lower it's prices, it has the ability to do so, and will probably see extra profit for doing so.

That's not true at all, while fewer substitute products is ONE factor among many that may contribute to inelasticity, product necessity is by and large the most significant factor. If congress passes a law that requires everyone to purchase health care then consumers have no recourse to respond to rising costs, there is no voting with your feet if they've been encased in cement. You said above that you just switched to gieco, so I'm assuming that means you live in NY (gieco's biggest market), is that correct? Do you know why auto insurance rates in CT are less than one third the cost in NY? No insurance mandate in CT. Like I said, pick up a book, take a class, hell, read wikipedia, just learn some macro anyway you can and you'll be far ahead of the game.
Old 08-11-2009, 09:28 PM bingstudent is offline  
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Riddle me this:
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If Medicare for Everyone is So Bad, Why Does Every Nation Who Has It Keep It? 10 Questions

1. If Canada's single-payer system is so god-awful, why have repeated Conservative governments at the provincial and national level in Canada never touched it? Canada is a democracy. If Canadians don't like their health care system, why haven't they gotten rid of it in 35 years? Since the system there is run by the separate provinces, many of which are very politically conservative, why has not one province ever tried to get rid of single-payer?

2. Why is rationing by income, as we do it here, better than rationing by need, as they do it in Canada?

3. Wouldn't single-payer mean that companies could no longer threaten working people with the loss of their health insurance? Why is this a bad idea?

4. The bigger the insurance pool, the better. So doesn't having a national pool, as with single-payer, make the most sense?

5. Why should we be allowing politicians who are taking money from the medical industry to write the new health care legislation?

6. How can the Congress be developing a health system reform scheme and not even invite experts from Canada down to explain their successful system?

7. If Medicare--a single-payer system here in America--is so popular with the elderly, how come it's no good for the rest of us?

8. Isn't it true that Medicare currently finances the most costly patient group--the elderly and infirm--so that extending it to the rest of the population--most of whom are young and healthy--would be much cheaper, per person?

9. The AMA, the Pharmaceutical Industry, and the Insurance Industry all bitterly opposed Medicare in 1964-5 when it was being debated in Congress and passed into law, with the right, led by Ronald Reagan, calling it creeping socialism. It became a life-saver for the elderly and didn't turn the US into a soviet republic. Why should we give a tinker's damn what those same three industry groups and the Republican right think of expanding single-payer now?

10. The executives of Canadian subsidiaries of US companies all support Canada's single-payer system, and even lobby collectively to have it expanded and better funded. Why does Congress listen to the executives of the parent companies here at home, and not invite those Canadian execs down to explain why they like single-payer?
from: http://blog.buzzflash.com/node/9181

And just as an example of how stupid this debate can get from the opposition:

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArti...33933006516877
Quote:
People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.
Only they have removed the reference now after realizing their incredible stupidity because:
Quote:
Stephen Hawking was born in Oxford. He currently teaches at the University of Cambridge. Oxford and Cambridge have something in common: They're both in England. [ie the UK]
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...roves_tha.html

And just in case you were wondering, Stephen Hawking himself has weighed in:
Quote:
I wouldn't be alive today if it weren't for the NHS. I have received a large amount of high quality treatment without which I would not have survived.
--Stephen Hawking, August 11, 2009

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com...hp?ref=reccafe
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Last edited by pyramid; 08-11-2009 at 10:57 PM..
Old 08-11-2009, 10:50 PM pyramid is offline  
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imsoocool2
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Simple, we don't want your great health care in the US. What we have is better.

How is it better?

edit: fact is, we have a great health care system in Canada. I can just walk in and be treated. Sure I pay abit more taxes, so what. I get sick, I get cured. (Oh and education is cheap)
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:19 AM imsoocool2 is offline  
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Originally Posted by Electrikfuzz050 View Post
As I stated, we SHOULDN'T be paying for Jim Bob's pool injury.

Ok, so we should withhold necessary care from people who can't afford it. Guess you can't complain about "rationing" anymore. Oh, and you said that we should pay for heart attack treatment, so I guess we're going to need someone deciding which care should and shouldn't be paid for out of the public fund. Death panels!
Old 08-12-2009, 07:10 AM Gibonius is offline  
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Originally Posted by imsoocool2 View Post
How is it better?

edit: fact is, we have a great health care system in Canada. I can just walk in and be treated. Sure I pay abit more taxes, so what. I get sick, I get cured. (Oh and education is cheap)

Americans are convinced everything is better in the US. It's part of our culture.

I do believe that for people who have either excellent health insurance or can pay for treatment independently, the system in the US is somewhat better. We also have a better system of scientific development of new drugs and treatments, and that's largely tied in to how much money is in health care here. But some kind of compromise is going to need to be reached, as it's really unethical to focus on the high end at the exclusion of the low end (and even middle) as we do.
Old 08-12-2009, 07:12 AM Gibonius is offline  
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imsoocool2
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Americans are convinced everything is better in the US. It's part of our culture.

I do believe that for people who have either excellent health insurance or can pay for treatment independently, the system in the US is somewhat better. We also have a better system of scientific development of new drugs and treatments, and that's largely tied in to how much money is in health care here. But some kind of compromise is going to need to be reached, as it's really unethical to focus on the high end at the exclusion of the low end (and even middle) as we do.

I'm not a medical expert but we can cure just about anything here, too.

The only downside is the occasional "clogging" in some hospital poorly managed. Everyone kinda gets a little more sick during winter so everyone shows up at the same time. But it's not that bad. One of my cousin got real sick not too long ago with a very problematic disease I forget the name. But he got treated within a day. For free.
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:05 AM imsoocool2 is offline  
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Electrikfuzz050
 
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Originally Posted by imsoocool2 View Post
I'm not a medical expert but we can cure just about anything here, too.

The only downside is the occasional "clogging" in some hospital poorly managed. Everyone kinda gets a little more sick during winter so everyone shows up at the same time. But it's not that bad. One of my cousin got real sick not too long ago with a very problematic disease I forget the name. But he got treated within a day. For free.

This is completely anecdotal, but truthful nonetheless.

Have you ever been to a hospital in America? Notice how it's nice and clean and shiny.

I've been to your hospitals over in Canuckistan (Windsor) and they're pretty fucking filthy, along with some parts of the city (never mind that I had to wait in line for 3 hours to get stitches on a wound that was bleeding profusely).

It's reflected in the housing there as well. If you take a drive through a Detroit suburb (or Detroit even) and you'll notice that the building style is uniform and sensible. Drive through Windsor however, and you'll see something completely different. There'll be a large house next to a liquor store, nest to a barn, next to a real estate office, next to a shack. It gives off a very dirty appearance, same as your hospitals.

Also, here we get treated within an hour, we don't have to set aside a whole day to go to the doctor.
Old 08-12-2009, 10:23 AM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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Electrikfuzz050
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Ok, so we should withhold necessary care from people who can't afford it. Guess you can't complain about "rationing" anymore. Oh, and you said that we should pay for heart attack treatment, so I guess we're going to need someone deciding which care should and shouldn't be paid for out of the public fund. Death panels!

So if Jim Bob's pool injury isn't fatal, why should we be paying for it? I don't give a fuck if he has a horrible scar on his forehead. Heart attacks, however, are usually fatal if not treated.

Why should I pay for a homeless person's healthcare? Yeah, it sucks to be in their position. Yeah, I would want someone to pay all of my bills too. But robbing Peter to pay Paul is completely unjust.
Old 08-12-2009, 10:28 AM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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imsoocool2
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Originally Posted by Electrikfuzz050 View Post
This is completely anecdotal, but truthful nonetheless.

Have you ever been to a hospital in America? Notice how it's nice and clean and shiny.

I've been to your hospitals over in Canuckistan (Windsor) and they're pretty fucking filthy, along with some parts of the city (never mind that I had to wait in line for 3 hours to get stitches on a wound that was bleeding profusely).

It's reflected in the housing there as well. If you take a drive through a Detroit suburb (or Detroit even) and you'll notice that the building style is uniform and sensible. Drive through Windsor however, and you'll see something completely different. There'll be a large house next to a liquor store, nest to a barn, next to a real estate office, next to a shack. It gives off a very dirty appearance, same as your hospitals.

Also, here we get treated within an hour, we don't have to set aside a whole day to go to the doctor.

I've lived in Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba and been to BC many times and all their hospitals are clean.. (windsor is kind of a small town)

Never been to Windsor though, I also don't know anyone from there but you were treated right?
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:00 AM imsoocool2 is offline  
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I've lived in Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba and been to BC many times and all their hospitals are clean.. (windsor is kind of a small town)

Never been to Windsor though, I also don't know anyone from there but you were treated right?
I found it curious a while back when Natasha Richardson (the actress, wife of Liam Neeson) was hurt while skiing in Canada...her family decided to fly her to New York for treatment even though her condition was serious enough that travel wasn't a good idea. Not saying that every part of the Canadian healthcare system is inferior to the US...but I've had contact with Canadians who aren't too high on the system. Of course, when you have no healthcare at all, (as is the case with many Americans) then anything would be better than nothing.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:56 PM joemama is offline  
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I found it FISHY a while back when Natasha Richardson (the actress, wife of Liam Neeson) was hurt while skiing in Canada...her family decided to fly her to New York for treatment even though her condition was serious enough that travel wasn't a good idea..

Sorry , Bubb -- I feel compelled to report this infraction to hussain's , RatLine...


Comrade... do you not realize that bringing up solid examples that Socialized Medicine is inferior to the "CapitalistWarMongeringRepublicanBushNaziMonkeyBigPharmaMedi cal-IndusrialComplex" system now in place borders on sanity and may inject same into the "debate"?

This is very dangerous + FISHY
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Old 08-12-2009, 03:55 PM jubjub is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Originally Posted by Electrikfuzz050 View Post
So if Jim Bob's pool injury isn't fatal, why should we be paying for it? I don't give a fuck if he has a horrible scar on his forehead. Heart attacks, however, are usually fatal if not treated.

Why should I pay for a homeless person's healthcare? Yeah, it sucks to be in their position. Yeah, I would want someone to pay all of my bills too. But robbing Peter to pay Paul is completely unjust.

I think that leaving people to deal with serious non-fatal injuries because they can't afford to have them treated is unjust. Going to refuse to set a broken arm because it's not fatal? etc etc

Point is, you're deciding what gets treated and what doesn't.
Old 08-12-2009, 04:01 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Electrikfuzz050
 
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I think that leaving people to deal with serious non-fatal injuries because they can't afford to have them treated is unjust. Going to refuse to set a broken arm because it's not fatal? etc etc

Point is, you're deciding what gets treated and what doesn't.

No, I'm deciding what I want to pay for and what I don't. I have no obligation to pay for someone's health care.
Old 08-12-2009, 05:56 PM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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joemama
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Correction: it WOULD BE a case for the courts if there were laws in place to prevent it. If only there was a group of people in our government attempting to create laws to protect health care consumers, maybe they would even call their new laws "health care reform," hmmm .....
Yes, new laws are the answer to all of our ills.
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:33 PM joemama is offline  
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