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TealVeal
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Zangmonkey
when it happens by itself
Destruction never just "happens" there is always a cause. The sticking point for you is the intentional destruction of a fetus.

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anything that one would do extraordinarily that would affect the life of the child.
And what is "extraordinary"? You are going to be going in circles or resort to an ad populum fallacy here.

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The difference here is that nature miscarraiges it, nature doesn't stick a vacuum in a woman.
I'm sorry, but a Natural being (doctor) preforming a Natural act (sucking) on another Natural being (woman) cannot be anything but Natural. Just come out and say it, vacuuming a fetus disgusts you.

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elaborate on why life is unimportant but personhood is.
Because if you are truly concerned about life then you would be as concerned about non-human life as well otherwise you are an equivocator.

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Did I justify slavery?
Straw man argument ++
You said to the effect of "since when is life a commodity?" and I answered your question, I gave you an example of when life was a commodity. Did I make a caricature of your position so I could more easily demolish it? Nope, I answered your own damn question. Misuse-of-he's-strawmanning-me-defense++ Why was the old interpretation of scripture wrong? Why do you believe your current interpretation is correct?
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Old 05-18-2003, 06:11 PM TealVeal is offline  
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kindred
 
So let me get this straight. Fetus's are nothing but blobs, pieces of organic matter that should hold or possess no "right" whatsoever?

ok. Well lets say the apocolypse hits earth and the only thing left are a two dozen pregnant mothers. Should they still have the right to abort the fetus's? Why not? Because they hold whats left of the future of humanity? Because those fetus's will BECOME humans. Its not the fact that they can think or feel, its the fact that they WILL BECOME human that they possess the same right to live as every other creature. That moment of conception isnt some fucking accident. That is the moment of the creation of life. Something that has yet to have been accomplished by any technological means whatsoever.

All I can say is that we're lucky humans dont evolve in multi stages. I could see us all killing off larvae offspring without a second though because, well shit their not human yet and have no thoughts or feelings.
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Old 05-18-2003, 07:14 PM kindred is offline  
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#137  

Razor Wire Neck Tie
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Zangmonkey
You are destroying potential. Without intervention the child would develop. Killing the fetus prematurely is a contravention to the normalcy of the situation. There is no difference between the life of an infant and the life of an unborn child.
How can you say that a person doesn't own the child but they own the fetus?
Since when is life a commodity?
Since when is life a right? That is the question we should be conversationating. Life is not a right, the commodities you earn due to life is a right.

During my skim of your post, I have become confused. You are talking about birthing being natural, and abortion being unnatural. So, along the same lines you would be 100% for backing a Government program to prevent birth defects, i.e. AIDS babies, retards, cripples, FAS, etc, etc? Meaning, you would sanction a program that would identify and destroy these things before they are born, correct?

Secondly a fetus is NOT a person. A fetus most closely resembles a PARASITE. It steals food from its host (mother), and at times causes the death of its host. I'm a person and I don't behave that way. A fetus also resembles a tumor. TUMOR: An uncontrolled growth of cells. A woman has the right (afforded to her by life) to remove something from her body she doesn't want. IT IS NO DIFFERENT FROM A FINGER, HAND, KIDNEY, WHATEVER.

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Old 05-18-2003, 08:00 PM Razor Wire Neck Tie is offline  
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#138  

Tom Kazansky
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Quote:
Originally posted by TealVeal
Unnatural fallacy, what is unnatural about vacuuming a fetus? Is the fetus unnatural? Is the vacuum unnatural? Come on and just say it "vacuuming fetuses disgusts me and I think that it should be illegal" at least be honest with yourself.
Yes. So I was watching the Discovery Channel the other day, and this elephant mother, who didn't want their baby, shoved a vacuum up her vagina and dealt with the problem herself. You actually think that shoving a vacuum up a pregnant woman's vagina and sucking out her child, ripping it apart in the process, is a natural thing?

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So anything which interferes with the development of a child is unnatural? I hereby declare not having coital sex 24/7 to be unnatural.
Ok, now you're just acting silly.

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Normal as defined by you. Unfortunately for you you don't realise how often Nature miscarriages fetuses.
Key word, "nature", not "abortion doctor".

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Really? I can think of lots of differences between the life of an infant and the existence of a fetus. The existance of "life" is not what is relevent, the existance of the abstract concept of "personhood" is.
Wouldn't you agree, for the safety of all people, that it's a little dangerous to be playing with the definition of what is a "person" so you can take away the rights of certain individuals? I find it amazing that Liberals, who claim to be champions of equality, can see nothing wrong with changing the definition of what is a "person" to fit their own ends (I'm not calling you a Liberal or anything, just saying this as a general case).

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Since when is life a right? That is the question we should be conversationating. Life is not a right, the commodities you earn due to life is a right.
Am I the only one who sees a problem with this quote as well?

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Secondly a fetus is NOT a person. A fetus most closely resembles a PARASITE.
Oh, so we're judging what is a person based upon physical appearances now are we? Very well. Would it then be ok for me to begin to differentiate between what is a person and what isn't based upon what kind of clothing one likes to wear?
Old 05-18-2003, 09:09 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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#139  

Razor Wire Neck Tie
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Kazansky
Yes. So I was watching the Discovery Channel the other day, and this elephant mother, who didn't want their baby, shoved a vacuum up her vagina and dealt with the problem herself. You actually think that shoving a vacuum up a pregnant woman's vagina and sucking out her child, ripping it apart in the process, is a natural thing?

Oh, so we're judging what is a person based upon physical appearances now are we? Very well. Would it then be ok for me to begin to differentiate between what is a person and what isn't based upon what kind of clothing one likes to wear?
First off, an elephant mother would trample the unwanted baby to death after it was born, or it would be left to die in the wilderness. What the fuck are you trying to say? That instead of a painless procedure, we should put unwanted creatures out into the cold so it can die from "natural" causes.

Secondly, if you read my post I was describing BEHAVIOR not physical appearence. You would get your dog a flea collar wouldn't you? In doing such a thing you are removing parasites that feed on your dogs body and steal from it's energy. You would also get a perscription to get rid of a tapeworm that decided to bed down in your intestines and eat the food you consume as well. A fetus is comparable to a tapeworm, with one exception, when the tapeworm comes out it doesn't destroy the woman's body, turning her into a less desireable mate, also, when the tapeworm comes out it's dead. So, bitch + tape worm > bitch + snot nosed, shit factory kid.
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Old 05-18-2003, 09:20 PM Razor Wire Neck Tie is offline  
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#140  

Zangmonkey
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Quote:
Originally posted by Razor Wire Neck Tie
First off, an elephant mother would trample the unwanted baby to death after it was born, or it would be left to die in the wilderness. What the fuck are you trying to say? That instead of a painless procedure, we should put unwanted creatures out into the cold so it can die from "natural" causes.

Secondly, if you read my post I was describing BEHAVIOR not physical appearence. You would get your dog a flea collar wouldn't you? In doing such a thing you are removing parasites that feed on your dogs body and steal from it's energy. You would also get a perscription to get rid of a tapeworm that decided to bed down in your intestines and eat the food you consume as well. A fetus is comparable to a tapeworm, with one exception, when the tapeworm comes out it doesn't destroy the woman's body, turning her into a less desireable mate, also, when the tapeworm comes out it's dead. So, bitch + tape worm > bitch + snot nosed, shit factory kid.

A child is a parasite, that's fine; it's true. I can't beleive your comparisons here. You're degrading a child to a worm simply because both are parasites. The differences you fail to acknowledge are that the child was inserted voluntarily, the fetus will develop into a self-sufficient SENTIENT being whereas the worm will not. Similarly, we revert back to my point. You are destroying potentiality. The Child will become an Adult.
Essentially what you're saying is that because a thing is helpless and not a complete developed adult there is no reason not to destroy it? Let's do what you like to do and compare this to nature: A caterpillar spins a cocoon and sits there accomplishing nothing for a period of time. Are you saying that if I want a butterfly, I should destroy the cocoon simply because it isn't yet what I want it to be?
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Old 05-18-2003, 10:53 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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#141  

Razor Wire Neck Tie
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Zangmonkey
A child is a parasite, that's fine; it's true. I can't beleive your comparisons here. You're degrading a child to a worm simply because both are parasites. The differences you fail to acknowledge are that the child was inserted voluntarily, the fetus will develop into a self-sufficient SENTIENT being whereas the worm will not. Similarly, we revert back to my point. You are destroying potentiality. The Child will become an Adult.
Essentially what you're saying is that because a thing is helpless and not a complete developed adult there is no reason not to destroy it? Let's do what you like to do and compare this to nature: A caterpillar spins a cocoon and sits there accomplishing nothing for a period of time. Are you saying that if I want a butterfly, I should destroy the cocoon simply because it isn't yet what I want it to be?
What you are failing to realize is that in no way do I desire to have a human being. I am comparing a FETUS to a TAPEWORM, retard, NOT a child to a worm. And no, a FETUS is never inserted voluntarily, a PENIS (oh noes not teh "P" word!!1) is inserted. As I've said time and time again, if you are a woman it is your civic duty to be on birth-control of some type or another. Having the condom break is NOT a justifiable reason to get pregnant. If the bitch is too stupid not to be responsible and take the pill (NOW COVERED UNDER MEDICAL INSURANCE = FREE/LOW CO-PAY) then they can do whatever they want with the wretched creature, unless they cling to a man for money, then they should be thrown in jail for fraud/blackmail. A FETUS is a parasite, much like a TAPEWORM (for those of you not versed in basic biology, a tapeworm is NOT a worm, it is a parasite made up of several segmented sacs). If I eat an orange, it has the potential, however extremely unlikely, to develop into an angry orange-man, capable of spraying orange juice in people's eyes to achieve it's evil goals. MUWAHAHA!
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Old 05-19-2003, 08:24 AM Razor Wire Neck Tie is offline  
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#142  

Tom Kazansky
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Quote:
First off, an elephant mother would trample the unwanted baby to death after it was born, or it would be left to die in the wilderness. What the fuck are you trying to say? That instead of a painless procedure, we should put unwanted creatures out into the cold so it can die from "natural" causes.
I'm not "trying" to say anything. I'm telling you that shoving a vacuum up someone's vagina and sucking their child out is not part of the natural process. Elephant mothers sometimes stamp out their babies when they're startled by it coming out, which is why they move it double time at the zoo to get the baby out of the way. I've never heard of a case where an elephant mother had sex for pleasure and slaughtered her child because she never wanted it in the first place.

Quote:
Secondly, if you read my post I was describing BEHAVIOR not physical appearence. You would get your dog a flea collar wouldn't you? In doing such a thing you are removing parasites that feed on your dogs body and steal from it's energy. You would also get a perscription to get rid of a tapeworm that decided to bed down in your intestines and eat the food you consume as well. A fetus is comparable to a tapeworm, with one exception, when the tapeworm comes out it doesn't destroy the woman's body, turning her into a less desireable mate, also, when the tapeworm comes out it's dead. So, bitch + tape worm > bitch + snot nosed, shit factory kid.
If you ran the world the human race would face total annihilation within years. Instructing women not to have children because if they do they are a less desireable mate (having children is the purpose of mating, just FYI) is absurd. Considering a fetus, which biologically has to get resources from the mother (who is responsible for doing so, just FYI) as a parasite is definitely one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard. Basically, you could consider a dependant child as a parasite that requires elimination at any stage of their lifetime. If they are a drain on the mother's resources (having to take them to soccer games, having to buy them food and clothing, etc), than is it perfectly justified, in your opinion, that she should have the legal right to slaughter it until it reaches an age where it can move out of the house? Furthermore, a fetus does not destroy the mother's body. If you think so, than you're going to have a tough time explaining to me how my mother is still alive and well, and the world's human population is approximately 6 billion strong. You sir, need to take a biology class STAT!
Old 05-19-2003, 09:06 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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#143  

Razor Wire Neck Tie
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Kazansky
I'm not "trying" to say anything. I'm telling you that shoving a vacuum up someone's vagina and sucking their child out is not part of the natural process. Elephant mothers sometimes stamp out their babies when they're startled by it coming out, which is why they move it double time at the zoo to get the baby out of the way. I've never heard of a case where an elephant mother had sex for pleasure and slaughtered her child because she never wanted it in the first place.
Oh yes, a zoo, what a perfect example OF NATURE, retard. And it's not a vacuum, they give you a shot, and you bleed it out. Unless you are refering to the second trimester abortion which has been illegal for years. FYI there are about 12 elephants born in captivity per year, an elephant is a poor choice for an example.



Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Kazansky
If you ran the world the human race would face total annihilation within years. Instructing women not to have children because if they do they are a less desireable mate (having children is the purpose of mating, just FYI) is absurd. Considering a fetus, which biologically has to get resources from the mother (who is responsible for doing so, just FYI) as a parasite is definitely one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard. Basically, you could consider a dependant child as a parasite that requires elimination at any stage of their lifetime. If they are a drain on the mother's resources (having to take them to soccer games, having to buy them food and clothing, etc), than is it perfectly justified, in your opinion, that she should have the legal right to slaughter it until it reaches an age where it can move out of the house? Furthermore, a fetus does not destroy the mother's body. If you think so, than you're going to have a tough time explaining to me how my mother is still alive and well, and the world's human population is approximately 6 billion strong. You sir, need to take a biology class STAT!
No, I consider a growth inside someone's body, that steals said person's energy and food to be similar to a parasite. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT CHILDREN, we are talking about a blastula (fetus). I'm not entirely sure what the death rate for humans is during birth, however I wouldn't be surprised if it was a large number. The Chinese have found a way to surpress their production of children by requiring the "parents" to inccur a limit on how many children they can spawn, also by deciding to spit out children they are bound to a legal contract (mariage). I have no problem with aborting a fetus up until a certain point in developement, which is already a law. The problem with the Christian fanatics that oppose abortion all together is that they seem to think that once conception has come to pass there is a magic baby inside the mother, fully developed, and just grows into a larger baby. So an abortion is exactly how it was done in the 60's. It's not. Sorry to disappoint you.
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Old 05-19-2003, 11:08 AM Razor Wire Neck Tie is offline  
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Zangmonkey
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Quote:
Originally posted by Razor Wire Neck Tie
What you are failing to realize is that in no way do I desire to have a human being. I am comparing a FETUS to a TAPEWORM, retard, NOT a child to a worm. And no, a FETUS is never inserted voluntarily, a PENIS (oh noes not teh "P" word!!1) is inserted. As I've said time and time again, if you are a woman it is your civic duty to be on birth-control of some type or another. Having the condom break is NOT a justifiable reason to get pregnant. If the bitch is too stupid not to be responsible and take the pill (NOW COVERED UNDER MEDICAL INSURANCE = FREE/LOW CO-PAY) then they can do whatever they want with the wretched creature, unless they cling to a man for money, then they should be thrown in jail for fraud/blackmail. A FETUS is a parasite, much like a TAPEWORM (for those of you not versed in basic biology, a tapeworm is NOT a worm, it is a parasite made up of several segmented sacs). If I eat an orange, it has the potential, however extremely unlikely, to develop into an angry orange-man, capable of spraying orange juice in people's eyes to achieve it's evil goals. MUWAHAHA!
First off, I'd like to commemorate you on your name calling skills. They really add substance to your argument and are by far the best mastery of the words I've ever seen.
A fetus is a by-product of sex. Having sex causes children. Fetuses do not just occur. Therefor, a child is a choice.
Secondly, it is a woman's duty to take birth control? How old are you? Sex is a responsibility, if neither party can handle the responsibility of sex, and all the repercussions associated with it perhaps they should keep tab A out of slot B. It's that simple.
If you aren't willing to have a child, don't have sex.


Let's have a poll:
Razor's age:
11
12
13
14
15
16
17


I vote 14
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Old 05-19-2003, 03:08 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Oh yes, a zoo, what a perfect example OF NATURE, retard.
Before calling someone a retard, you should learn how to read. Let's look at what I said.

Quote:
I'm telling you that shoving a vacuum up someone's vagina and sucking their child out is not part of the natural process. Elephant mothers sometimes stamp out their babies when they're startled by it coming out, which is why they move it double time at the zoo to get the baby out of the way.
This was in response to your argument about elephants stamping out babies because they didn't want them. Tell that to a room full of biologists and watch as they laugh you out of there. Good call on that one.

Quote:
And it's not a vacuum, they give you a shot, and you bleed it out. Unless you are refering to the second trimester abortion which has been illegal for years.
Ok, you've got to learn to actually research something before sounding off in the pit and looking like a moron as a result of your lack of knowledge. Do you honestly think there is only one method of conducting abortions? I'm not even going to bother providing you with links, because it's obvious to me that it's about time you start doing some digging on your own so you can have an "educated" opinion.

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No, I consider a growth inside someone's body, that steals said person's energy and food to be similar to a parasite. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT CHILDREN, we are talking about a blastula (fetus).
It's official, you need to take a health course (maybe even a biology course) so you can learn about reproduction. Until then, I refuse to take you seriously.

Quote:
I'm not entirely sure what the death rate for humans is during birth, however I wouldn't be surprised if it was a large number.
That was an issue before modern medicine. The rate is low enough that it is not an excuse for abortion, especially when you consider that abortion is not good for the woman and that women have actually died as a result of having one. Also, if women were instructed to abort upon pregnancy because of the possibility of death, than the human race would not pass this generation. Winning strategy you've got there.

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The Chinese have found a way to surpress their production of children by requiring the "parents" to inccur a limit on how many children they can spawn, also by deciding to spit out children they are bound to a legal contract (mariage).
Yes, they have, and many female babies have been killed because of this. And you should be disgusted with this as well, because you cannot tell the sex of the child before it reaches a later stage in development.

Quote:
The problem with the Christian fanatics that oppose abortion all together is that they seem to think that once conception has come to pass there is a magic baby inside the mother, fully developed, and just grows into a larger baby.
Which is a fact that is supported by scientists, and I've got the quotes to prove it. Like I said, if you took a biology course, or even a basic grade school science course, than you would be fully aware that the fetus fulfills the classification of living things. When it comes to "full development", I can easily argue, using your own logic, that that doesn't take place until the person reaches adulthood. Keep trying, I'm sure you'll come up with a fact sooner or later.
Old 05-19-2003, 03:25 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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#146  

Forsaken_Saint
 
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Originally posted by Tom Kazansky
No, because a miscarriage can happen naturally, whereas getting a doctor to shove a vacuum up your thingy and suck your child out is voluntary, and unnatural.

Not always... They could use a coathanger... or a good kick to the stomach with steel-toes
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Old 05-19-2003, 04:05 PM Forsaken_Saint is offline  
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Forsaken_Saint
 
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Originally posted by kindred


ok. Well lets say the apocolypse hits earth and the only thing left are a two dozen pregnant mothers. Should they still have the right to abort the fetus's? Why not? Because they hold whats left of the future of humanity? Because those fetus's will BECOME humans. Its not the fact that they can think or feel, its the fact that they WILL BECOME human that they possess the same right to live as every other creature. That moment of conception isnt some fucking accident. That is the moment of the creation of life. Something that has yet to have been accomplished by any technological means whatsoever.


Well if thats what you want, at the apocolypse, when Jesus comes down from the clouds and pulls my dead grandmother from her grave, I will tell women not to abort. But heres a question, Most of these pro-lifers will be gone, because forgive me if im wrong but doesnt the "Rapture" happen and Jesus takes his followers to heaven. And I guess most others would be killed from the war on earth, and Satan's followers will kill/torture most that are left.

But if you are talking in a non-biblical sense...
Scientists have already figured out that by 2012, if the population continues to boom the way that it is, the Earth will no longer be able to sustain nurshment for all of its occupants.
If there are 12 mothers left in the world, you will want to keep them alive but what you have to consider, after so long those that live until the point of reproduction will have mate and overtime a form of inbreeding will happen.
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Old 05-19-2003, 04:26 PM Forsaken_Saint is offline  
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#148  

TealVeal
 
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Originally posted by kindred
So let me get this straight. Fetus's are nothing but blobs, pieces of organic matter that should hold or possess no "right" whatsoever?
What is a right but something a person with power grants the less powerful?

Quote:
ok. Well lets say the apocolypse hits earth and the only thing left are a two dozen pregnant mothers. Should they still have the right to abort the fetus's? Why not? Because they hold whats left of the future of humanity? Because those fetus's will BECOME humans. Its not the fact that they can think or feel, its the fact that they WILL BECOME human that they possess the same right to live as every other creature.
I'm sorry I believe in personal choice. Why should people make decisions that are best for the group? Are we pinkocommunists or something?

Quote:
That moment of conception isnt some fucking accident. That is the moment of the creation of life. Something that has yet to have been accomplished by any technological means whatsoever.
Wow where to start. Life is not created at conception, life continues. Are your pancreas cells alive? They sure as hell are. Sperm cells are alive. What you really meant to say was "conception is when a sperm and an egg join." Now to the next false statement. RNA has been created in the lab. Then the obviously fallacious insinuation that just because hasn't been done by humans yet means it's special. This is a similar argument to the God of the Gap. It can join him in his small shrinking little shithole.

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All I can say is that we're lucky humans dont evolve in multi stages.
We evolve one generation at a time...

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I could see us all killing off larvae offspring without a second though because, well shit their not human yet and have no thoughts or feelings.
Do you truly believe that if we grew out of larva that everybody would magically go around killing larva? Are you really so stupid as to believe people advocating a pro-choice stance think that every fetus should be aborted?
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Old 05-19-2003, 04:42 PM TealVeal is offline  
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TealVeal
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Zangmonkey
First off, I'd like to commemorate you on your name calling skills. They really add substance to your argument and are by far the best mastery of the words I've ever seen.
A fetus is a by-product of sex. Having sex causes children. Fetuses do not just occur. Therefor, a child is a choice.
You are right, having a child is a choice. One of the choices a woman faces is whether or not to abort her fetus.

Quote:
Secondly, it is a woman's duty to take birth control? How old are you? Sex is a responsibility, if neither party can handle the responsibility of sex, and all the repercussions associated with it perhaps they should keep tab A out of slot B. It's that simple.

If you aren't willing to have a child, don't have sex.
Mr Puritan, go infect another country we want pleasure back.
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Old 05-19-2003, 04:47 PM TealVeal is offline  
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