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slicedoranges
I'M A COCKSUCKER, JUST GIVE ME A CHANCE & I'LL SUCK YOUR'S DRY
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiler View Post
I'd love to someday see our healthcare as good as Frances or such.

Not going to happen as long as Republicans stay greedy and Democrats stay spineless
Old 09-27-2007, 01:03 AM slicedoranges is offline  
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AbortTheFetus
 
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Originally Posted by Stiler View Post
No to national health care? The US has a great health care system yes, if you have insurance/are wealthy. If you are poor/middle class, or like some, just a college student with no insurance from your job, a major problem can be devastating, not just to the sole person it happens to, but their entire family. People have had to sell their houses/become homeless because of the cracks the current health care system has.

I'd love to someday see our healthcare as good as Frances or such.

My mom, after working for a company for like 15 years is making maybe 10 dollars an hour, and her health insurance is excellent. I'd hardly consider 10 dollars an hour to be outside of the poor/middle class. There's some fucked up things with the healthcare system, does it need to be changed, absofuckinglutely but to just say, "hey let the government handle it" when it's evident that they can't handle a lot of shit they're already "on top of" is just ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Badger_sly View Post
There are only 2 items I agree with Ron on: global warming is just natural climate change, and socialized healthcare is a horrible idea. Pretty much everything else (get rid of CIA/DEA/IRS/EPA as a few) labels Ron a crackpot.

you know BP, as in British Petroleum, one of the major oil companies in the US has a plant in whiting indiana, they're planning on retrofitting some equipment or whatever the fuck they need to do so they can process sour crude from Canada, the result is additional silt and ammonia being deposited into Lake Michigan, a lake that already isn't consistently swimmable in. Why hasn't the EPA done shit about that, why is this plan to go through with dumping shit into one of the largest freshwater lakes in this nation not being stopped? But you're right, we shoudl just push more money into a worthless program that isn't doing it's job.

The CIA's actions is why a lot of countries hate us. If they were all for just gathering intelligence..... I'd be cool with that. He wants to get rid of the income tax, if there's no income tax, well then the IRS wouldn't serve much of a purpose. And he opposes the war on drugs like any libertarian would, why would he want a DEA without a war on drugs?
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Old 09-27-2007, 01:46 AM AbortTheFetus is offline  
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More Ron Paul Secrets Revealed

Ron Paul – I like his ideas but they are not practical.

I hear this all the time. Many people like Ron Paul's views, but for some reason, they have decided that liberty is not "practical" and freedom is a "luxury" we cannot afford anymore. But deep down, they really wish it were different. It can be different. The answer is right in front of you: Vote for Ron Paul. The other day a person said to me that they really liked all of Ron Paul's views and ideas, but why vote for him if he can't win? That logic confounds me. Was the person really saying that it makes more sense to vote for someone you don't like, who will get into office and hurt you, just because he has a better chance of winning? It is astonishing the way some people think. In case the news did not get out, the $5000 cash prize for picking the candidate who wins has been cancelled. The only thing you get when you vote for a guy you do not like is policies you do not like – policies that will hurt you, hurt your pocketbook, and hurt your family. Oh, and P.S., Ron Paul is winning, he is winning in debates and straw polls and sweeping the Internet, but the mainstream media does not want you to know so they keep the news to themselves.

Ron Paul is the only candidate running who offers true hope for the people. Perhaps Americans are so jaded that they don't think it is possible to live without tyranny. Perhaps people feel that after decades of being robbed, tricked, lied to, and manipulated that they need to let go of hope and be willing accept that their lot in life will not improve with the next four years so the best they do is vote for the lesser of two evils. This election, for the first time, you don’t have to vote for evil. You have a real choice for once in many decades. Take advantage of it. Dare to dream.

Ron Paul offers the people of this country real hope. He offers protection from (rather than catering to) the corporate big wigs. Ron Paul is the only candidate who wants to make your life better. For example:

Ron Paul offers truth. Did you know that it is illegal for a dietary supplement company to make a true statement about its products because the big pharmaceuticals want all your business and cannot stand the thought of you taking a cheap herbal remedy? Ron Paul introduced the Health Freedom Protection Act so that the FDA cannot stand in your way of hearing truthful claims about the benefits of foods and dietary supplements. Ron Paul offers hope to your family over the profits of huge companies. Yes, you can have someone on your side.

Did you know that emergency rooms are going out of business because of legislation passed by Congress? Under the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) physicians who work in emergency rooms are required to provide care, regardless of a person's ability to pay, to anyone who comes into an emergency room. Hospitals are also required by law to bear the full costs of providing free care to anyone who seeks emergency care. Thus, EMTALA forces medical professionals and hospitals to bear the entire cost of caring for the indigent. Many institutions simply cannot afford the strain. Ron Paul seeks to offset those costs with tax credits to physicians with a new bill he introduced.

Ron Paul offers freedom to churches to exercise their freedom of speech in the political arena. Did you know that the IRS has sent notices to more than 15,000 non-profit organizations – including churches – regarding its new crackdown on political activity? Ron Paul writes: "We cannot allow churches to be silenced any more than we can allow political dissent in general to be silenced." "The Constitution's guarantee of religious freedom must not depend on the whims of IRS bureaucrats." You don't have to go it alone; you can have a candidate who fights for you.

Ron Paul also fights for a parent's right to raise their child the way they see fit and to make their own decisions about whether to medicate away their child’s behavior. The government wants to take that choice away from you. The government is calling for the mandatory mental health screening of American schoolchildren, meaning millions of kids will be forced to undergo psychiatric screening whether their parents consent or not. Ron Paul introduced an amendment to eliminate any funding for the proposal. He also introduced a bill that forbids federal funds from being used for any mental-health screening of students without the express, written, voluntary, informed consent of their parents. The bill is known as "The Parental Consent Act of 2005," or HR 181. Ron Paul will fight the government as it tries to take over the most basic of rights: the right to raise your child.

As far as the working man is concerned, Ron Paul also wants to help out there. He wants to get rid of the Income tax. I hear all the time: that is not practical, that is not possible, and we need the income tax. I say okay, but would you like it if the Income Tax was gone? The answer is always yes. Well, you can have what you want. Under Ron Paul's plan, we only need to return to the spending levels of the year 2000 to be able to eliminate the Income tax. In fact, the Income tax is only one of many, many different taxes and tariffs that the government seizes to collect money and without this one particular tax, the government can run just fine. So, you see, you can have what you want. You really can have freedom. If you truly want to keep your whole paycheck, what is stopping you? All you need to do is vote for Ron Paul.

Do you think your medical information should be kept private? Yes? So does Ron Paul. The government on the other hand disagrees. Under a bill passed a few years ago, rather than protecting the individual’s right to medical privacy, the government issued regulations empowering government officials to determine how much medical privacy an individual "needs.'' The regulations also require health care providers to give medical records to the federal government for inclusion in a federal health care database. Ron Paul fought that for you and introduced the Patient Privacy Act to repeal these threats to patient privacy and provide quality health care. Yes, it is possible to get Big Brother off your back and out of your most private and intimate issues. Again, all you have to do is vote for Ron Paul.

Think the Department of Homeland Security is keeping you safe? Think again. Ron Paul explains: "Five years into this new Department, Congress still cannot agree on how to handle the mega-bureaucracy it created, which means there has been no effective oversight of the department. While Congress remains in disarray over how to fund and oversee the department, we can only wonder whether we are more vulnerable than we were before Homeland Security was created." Meanwhile, safer or not, in May of this year Congress voted to authorize nearly $40 billion dollars of your money for the Homeland Security Department. We certainly don’t need more bureaucracy gumming up the works and losing track of important information. Ron Paul wants to end the wasting of our money and find a real way to keep us safe.

In general, government solutions don’t work. You know this deep in your gut. As the years have passed and more and more areas are taken over by the government, your lives get harder, your privacy is lost, and your liberties are seen as distant memories. You work more and more hours and get fewer and fewer benefits each year. The cost of food and fuel has gone up so fast that your tiny raise, if you even get a raise, can’t keep up with the additional expense. Financially, you are moving backwards and your savings are losing more to inflation every year. Education for your children has become shameful. Many people are forced to move just to find school districts that are acceptable. The promises keep coming, but nothing gets delivered. This is because the government is not really there to help you. It is there to help its friends, big businesses and themselves but certainly not you. Ron Paul gave this speech before the House of Representatives on the topic. Does that speech sound like it came from a man who wants to work to continue the status quo or shake things up a bit and help the rest of us? (Please click on it and read it, it is very powerful.)

As Ron Paul knows, political power over others is coercion and more government means more coercion. We don’t need to be coerced any longer. We can have freedom. Ron Paul offers us freedom from improper uses of political power.

Ron Paul is a doctor. Perhaps that is what makes him different. He took the Hippocratic Oath which states in part "I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients." Replace the word patients with citizens and you have the perfect recipe for a President.

Is a Ron Paul Presidency practical? Not only is it practical, but it is realistic, and offers true hope and change for those of us not in the "club." A Ron Paul Presidency will be a Presidency for the people, bringing real change and growth for the general public. A Ron Paul Presidency will offer you all you wish was true, but didn’t think possible anymore. Is it practical to regain our freedoms? Yes. Is it practical to regain our liberties? Yes. Is it practical to lessen the burdens placed on us by our government? Yes, yes, yes. You can have what you want. All you have to do is ask for it by voting for Ron Paul.

Ron Paul is the only Republican that wants to end the war and prevent a military draft. If that is important to you, then vote for him in the primaries no matter which party you support. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a ballot with two anti-war candidates?

People criticize Ron Paul for wanting to bring the troops home today. Well, in reality, he couldn’t take office until January of 2009, so he could not bring them home before then. That is hardly ending the war today. If in fact we are not being lied to again and the surge is working and everything in Iraq will be hunky dory in just a few more months, the issue will be moot by then. If not, then wasn’t six years enough time to try to get the job done? How many American lives have to be lost to save face? Can’t we end the madness at some point? How can you win a war against a battle tactic (like terrorism) anyway?

Please click on the underlined links in this article. They take you to articles and speeches and bills sponsored by Ron Paul. To truly see the greatness in this man you need to read his words, not mine. I can only hope to guide you to the truth that is Ron Paul. A truth the mainstream media does not want you to see. I bet you didn’t know he polled first after all of the debates and he has been winning in straw poll after straw poll across the United States including Alabama, North Carolina, New Hampshire Taxpayers, New Hampshire (general), and Maryland. Ron Paul also has two second-place finishes and three third-place finishes. But the mainstream media are owned by those corporations that have their hand out at the government trough and are worried it may dry up (Ron Paul turns so many lobbyists away he is known as Dr. No in Washington), so they don’t want you to know about the good doctor. They do not want you to know you have a way out. If nothing else convinces you that should. If they don’t want you to hear about him, he must be good for you.

(Also, keep in mind that Ron Paul does not support big corporate welfare and they do not support him. Please donate whatever you can to his campaign RonPaul2008.com. Believe it or not, even ten dollars makes a difference!)


September 21, 2007

Jennifer Haman [send her mail] is a 44-year-old attorney. She grew up in NYC, dropped out of high school, and then moved to Las Vegas to become a croupier in craps working at the Desert Inn for seven years. She obtained a GED and later attended Arizona State University receiving numerous awards and graduating Summa Cum Laude in 1996. She then went on to attend and graduate from Harvard Law in 1999. She is licensed in both CA and AZ. She practiced complex civil litigation and appellate work for 6 years. She is currently on sabbatical, living with her husband Adam in Mesa, Arizona.


SOURCES:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/haman4.html
http://ronpaullibrary.org/document·php?id=549
http://ronpaullibrary.org/document·php?id=930
http://ronpaullibrary.org/document·php?id=470
http://ronpaullibrary.org/document·php?id=394
http://ronpaullibrary.org/document·php?id=456
http://ronpaullibrary.org/document·php?id=640
http://ronpaullibrary.org/document·php?id=512
http://ronpaullibrary.org/document·php?id=533
http://ronpaullibrary.org/document·php?id=498
http://classics.mit.edu/Hippocrates/hippooath.html
http://ronpaullibrary.org/document·php?id=524
http://ronpaullibrary.org/document·php?id=532
http://72.3.245.5/Freemarketnews/Wor...nid=47579&fb=1
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Old 09-27-2007, 02:41 AM Free_Willy is offline  
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Malakai
 
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The governments job in a republic is whatever the people decide it's job should be.

The job of our republic as idealized by it's founders was to protect the personal and property (and economic) rights of it's citizens from all threats, foreign and domestic. This includes the tyranny of the majority, or in our case of the powerful special interests with control over the flow of information.

Several of the founders spoke quite specifically about this, especially Jefferson. Our constitution was inspired by many great philosophy writings including John Stuart Mills 'On Liberty', which goes into great detail about the 'tyranny of the majority'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiler View Post
Do some of you not understand that the world has changed quite a lot since the 1700's and such?

You don't have doctors going around plying their trade and profession with simple bartering or other ways to pay them, among other things.

The federal government exists for a reason, to abolish so many federal social systems wouldn't be a good thing imo.

No to national health care? The US has a great health care system yes, if you have insurance/are wealthy. If you are poor/middle class, or like some, just a college student with no insurance from your job, a major problem can be devastating, not just to the sole person it happens to, but their entire family. People have had to sell their houses/become homeless because of the cracks the current health care system has.

I like Ron Paul for his views on personal freedom and other things, but I disagree with him here.

Call me whatever you want, but I think part of the advantage of being a country, is that we should help our own people, not leave them behind simply because they don't have as much money as someone else.

I'd love to someday see our healthcare as good as Frances or such.

Google news some info about Frances healthcare system, costs are beyond massive, running it is putting them in major debt. When someone doesn't care about the cost of a service, they will abuse it, costs will rise and supply will decline. People come here from all around the world for major medical procedures because countries with socialized medical care can't keep the good doctors due to associated problems.
If you think we can handle socialized healthcare for everyone in the US (including the illegal alliens according to many dem candidates) plus the war and other massive expenditures without drastically increasing taxes or inflating the dollar to zero worth, you need to wake up. Parts of the economy are in dire dire straits, the value of the dollar is plummeting, and you want to add a new massive spending plan into the budget?


Here's what I don't get about so many pro welfare state people. Did you all like the living conditions provided by socialism in the past? Are you saying that central economic planning works better than small interested groups governing themselves? Can you name me an example?
Which of these services would you say benefited from centralization.
Social Security (the money they intake is far inadequate to maintain it, and congress spends all the money from the fund all the time...)
Healthcare (pre to post 70's where government became much more involved, ie the age of the HMO)
Education (pre and post department of education. LOL. Notice as federal spending increases and regulation increases, quality decreases)
Disaster Relief (FEMA, again as spending increases so do the blunders)
Continue through the list, way too much to type.

After evaluating these services, it seems quite apparent that handing control over services the entire country depends on to special interest paid for bureaucrats seems like a bad idea. At the very least, no one has a problem with almost every politician and candidate wiping their ass with our constitutional rights, and the never ending flow or poorly thought out and researched legislation? Someone finally speaks out for our rights and so many hate him for it.

Last edited by Malakai; 09-27-2007 at 03:50 AM..
Old 09-27-2007, 03:28 AM Malakai is offline  
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Escaped Gorilla Genitals
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
The job of our republic as idealized by it's founders was to protect the personal and property (and economic) rights of it's citizens from all threats, foreign and domestic. This includes the tyranny of the majority, or in our case of the powerful special interests with control over the flow of information.

Several of the founders spoke quite specifically about this, especially Jefferson. Our constitution was inspired by many great philosophy writings including John Stuart Mills 'On Liberty', which goes into great detail about the 'tyranny of the majority'.
Yes, you're right. However the people of the US decided it was the government job to provide and support social welfare, so now that's part of it's job too.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
Google news some info about Frances healthcare system, costs are beyond massive, running it is putting them in major debt. When someone doesn't care about the cost of a service, they will abuse it, costs will rise and supply will decline. People come here from all around the world for major medical procedures because countries with socialized medical care can't keep the good doctors due to associated problems.
People pay much more to the government in France because they expect much more and apparently they're quite happy with their service. Their healthcare system costs a lot of money yes, but per capita it's still less expensive than the US system. The largest problem in France is pensions for government employees rather than healthcare costs. Doctors coming here because they can make the most money does not necessarily reflect well on our own system, not to mention people going to France, GB, or Sweden for medical procedures isn't exactly uncommon either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
If you think we can handle socialized healthcare for everyone in the US (including the illegal alliens according to many dem candidates) plus the war and other massive expenditures without drastically increasing taxes or inflating the dollar to zero worth, you need to wake up. Parts of the economy are in dire dire straits, the value of the dollar is plummeting, and you want to add a new massive spending plan into the budget?
We usually pay more now than nations with socialized systems, a lot of the expense is just payed by private citizens and companies instead of being added onto government debt. When medical costs are the leading cause of bankruptcy in our country somethings wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
Here's what I don't get about so many pro welfare state people. Did you all like the living conditions provided by socialism in the past?
The standard of living in most socialized European nations is near or above US levels so I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it? What do you mean by socialism in the past?

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Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
Are you saying that central economic planning works better than small interested groups governing themselves?
Central economic planning and UHC aren't really the same thing.


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Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
Can you name me an example?
I'd say the health care systems of Scandinavia are generally superior to our own, although they're not perfect (I believe it's important to let private practices continue and that they become too intertwined with other government social programs).


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Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
Which of these services would you say benefited from centralization.
Social Security (the money they intake is far inadequate to maintain it, and congress spends all the money from the fund all the time...)
I'd say it's generally superior to it's predecessor, which was nothing. If Congress would stop taking money from SS and actually create a concrete tax plan for it's support it wouldn't have budget problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
Healthcare (pre to post 70's where government became much more involved, ie the age of the HMO)
Hard to say, there isn't really a great free market model out there to compare to UHC systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
Education (pre and post department of education. LOL. Notice as federal spending increases and regulation increases, quality decreases)
Actually the overall quality of education has been slowly increasing (especially since the mid 80's), more people are better educated than ever before although it's still a far cry from what could be done. I'm curious as to what you think the alternative would be? Private schools are great for the upper-middle/upper class, terrible for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
Disaster Relief (FEMA, again as spending increases so do the blunders)
Yes, FEMA has been badly managed recently. But without that support people would have to rely on private charities, which are just as prone to mismanagement and are dependent on donations which can fluctuate wildly based on public publicity. Anyone still remember all the controversies over 9/11 private charities?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
After evaluating these services, it seems quite apparent that handing control over services the entire country depends on to special interest paid for bureaucrats seems like a bad idea.
I disagree with your evaluation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
At the very least, no one has a problem with almost every politician and candidate wiping their ass with our constitutional rights, and the never ending flow or poorly thought out and researched legislation? Someone finally speaks out for our rights and so many hate him for it.
There are a great many people on both sides of the political fence seeking to curb the government grab for power besides Ron Paul. People who are attracted to his Libertarian ideas hold him up as the lone crusading figure fighting for our rights from the federal government, which just isn't true. I don't hate Ron Paul, I just think most of his views on the federal government and economy are ridiculous and that his views that I do agree with (mostly foreign policy) can be enacted through other politicians.

Last edited by Jim Morrison; 09-27-2007 at 08:59 AM..
Old 09-27-2007, 08:56 AM Escaped Gorilla Genitals is offline  
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Are you serious?

You blame government subsidies (how that applies to lead content in toys escapes me)
I suppose if you want to curry a little favour from the miners' union, you could offer a little tax break for factories that use lead in their products, increasing demand for lead and making the miners' union a little bit happier. If you're referring to the Chinese thing, that's really a whole other kettle of fish. In the domestic sense, subsidies, particularly subsidies that relate to production, are always used to ensure supply and demand of something the the market doesn't naturally want. Why doesn't the market naturally want it? One reason might be because the product is dangerous. Does the safety of the consumer matter to the miners' union?

Quote:
You're saying that if there were no regulations, that companies would play ball for fear of legal action by citizens?
Yes. They already do anyways. Class action litigation has done more for product safety, the duty to warn and negligent distribution than any government regulation has or could hope to do. The reason is because as soon as a new scientific or engineering principle becomes known that has a material impact on the safety (etc.) of a product or service, the firm has an immediate or virtually immediate obligation to apply it--contrast with government regulations, which have to be discovered, voted on, and in any event could be substituted for some unrelated, collateral political transaction (e.g. if you take this regulation off the table, I'll open up a new factory in your voting district--an impossibility in tort law). After the years that it takes to set all of that up, THEN you have to enforce it, which again is subject to secret political transactions at the expense of the afflicted individuals. On the other hand, lawyers in a class action who stand to receive millions in fees if they succeed would be completely uninhibited, subject to the law. Where exactly is the advantage in government regulation as opposed to litigation again?

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Isn't the entire PURPOSE of government to protect the wellbeing of the citizens?
The only legitimate purpose of government is to defend the right to self-ownership and voluntary trade.
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Last edited by cromicus; 09-27-2007 at 01:37 PM..
Old 09-27-2007, 01:34 PM cromicus is offline  
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